219: Thriving After Infidelity: Michael’s Story

Hi everyone, I'm Dr. Marie Murphy and I'm a non-judgmental infidelity coach. If you are cheating on your partner or having an affair or engaging in anything you think counts as infidelity, I can help you deal with your feelings, clarify what you want, and make decisions about what you're going to do. No shame, no blame, no judgments. A lot of the so-called help that's out there for people who are engaging in infidelity is little more than thinly veiled judgment, but that is not what I provide. I give you guidance and support that respects the fullness of your humanity and the complexity of your situation, no matter what you're doing. When you're ready to resolve your infidelity situation in a way that's truly right for you, I can help you do it. There are two ways you can have me as your coach. You can enroll in my private online course, You're Not the Only One, or we can work together one-on-one via Zoom. To get started with either of these options, go to my website, mariemurphyphd.com.

All right, today I have a really special treat for you. I am interviewing my former client, Michael, about his infidelity situation and how he resolved it and how his life has evolved in the wake of his infidelity situation. Now, I want to assure you that if you've been considering working with me and you're thinking, "Oh my God, I don't ever want to be a guest on her podcast, so maybe I shouldn't work with her," please rest assured that I will not ask you to be a guest on my podcast. I am very committed to respecting my client's privacy, and I also try very hard to avoid doing anything that might make my clients feel pressured to do something for me. Michael is the only client I've ever asked to be on my podcast, and I asked him for very specific reasons. If he had said no, it would have been totally fine, but I am so glad he was willing to share his story because he serves as a great example of what is possible when it comes to resolving your infidelity situation in a way that you feel really good about. I hope that you will feel inspired and empowered as you listen to his story.

—

Marie Murphy: Michael, it is so nice to have you here today. Thank you so much for doing this.

Michael: Yeah, nice to be here, Marie. Thank you.

Marie Murphy: Okay. Without any preamble, tell everybody about what was going on when you booked your first session with me. And this was a few years ago now.

Michael: Yep, it was a few years ago. So I was married and I had an affair prior to that, actually, almost a year or two before that.

Marie Murphy: Before that, meaning before when you got in touch with me.

Michael: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Honestly, it was very continuing to struggle, you know, being in my marriage with happiness. Actually, I wasn't getting much sleep. I was definitely struggling in general.

Marie Murphy: Let's get into a little more detail because I know that a lot of people will relate to the specifics of what you were struggling with in your marriage. Tell everybody a little bit about what your marriage was like, what was good about it, what was not so good about it.

Michael: Yep, some good things. We have children, love them to death, and we take care of very good care of them. I think my ex-wife, now ex-wife, and I were very good at taking care of our kids and just being parents. But we didn't focus a lot or at all really on our relationship. And it's no fault of hers or just it wasn't really something that we focused on. In fact, I think we tended to focus on our careers and then our children and then didn't really spend a lot of time focusing on us. We really had no physical intimacy really since the birth of the children, which was a few years before that, right time.

Marie Murphy: But hang on, like I may be misremembering, so correct me if I'm wrong, but if I'm remembering correctly, there wasn't a whole lot of like physical connection from the get-go. It wasn't just post-kids. It was like not what you would have liked ideally.

Michael: Correct. In no way I want to say that this was like something that just happened after having children really. It was it happened even before really. It was just a just a people, two people being on very different wavelengths, right? In terms of physical intimacy and ultimately that just pervaded into just communication overall, right? Not talking about issues or not, you know, kind of avoiding talking about issues. And so really, I would say at the time that you and I started to talk, it was mostly like a roommate relationship but with parents responsibilities, right? And just kind of people passing by each other.

Marie Murphy: Ships in the night.

Michael: Yeah, exactly. And so, and then that compounded against or compared against the affair.

Marie Murphy: So, okay, I'm going to interrupt again. You're used to it.

Michael: Yep, that's okay.

Marie Murphy: Like tell everybody a little bit about when the affair started, you had one kid, right?

Michael: Correct. Yes.

Marie Murphy: Yeah. So like, how did that begin? What was that like? What were the like joys and sorrows of that experience like for you?

Michael: It started first from a working, like a work relationship. We worked together. And then just kind of became more of a friendship beyond the working relationship. And then again, I had one child and another child was actually on the way.

Marie Murphy: Just again, I'm going to interrupt. I remember you telling me like a great story about like the timing of learning that you had another child on the way.

Michael: Yeah. Yeah.

Marie Murphy: You don't have to share it, but if you want to, it was pretty good.

Michael: I remember at the time just being bogged down with parenting and then again, not having this very strong relationship with my ex-wife at the time, just being very overburdened if you will, or just like overwhelmed and thinking at the moment, I remember saying to my ex-wife, “I can't imagine having another child.” And then it was literally, I don't remember if it was that moment or like maybe an hour or two later just getting that - she gave me the test result and that's showing that well, we were having another child. And it was very, yeah, it was very interesting timing. And at that time I was not, I don't think I was having the affair right then, but it's right around that time that the affair was starting, you know, and it's just sort of continued to grow, the affair relationship at that moment, you know.

Marie Murphy: So what was going on in your mind? You're like, okay, I've got one kid, I've got a spouse that's kind of like a roommate, and I've got a baby on the way, and oh my God, I'm having an affair. Like so what was that like in the fun house of your mind?

Michael: Very mixed because you have sort of this excitement about having this being wanted and this passion that I had not had in a long time.

Marie Murphy: Yeah, within the affair, you mean?

Michael: Yes, right, correct. Yeah, within the affair. Just extreme passion. It's on like steroids, it almost feels like, right? And that with the guilt because that's not something that I ever thought would happen or ever intended to happen really. It's just kind of seemed like it almost just happened, and then the responsibility of the child coming knowing that I certainly didn't feel like I was not going to be there for my child coming and be supportive of the family and you know, and in my ex-wife and like just trying to get, you know, have the birth of the baby and so I very conflicted, you know, I had a lot of there was definitely guilt and shame because I was doing something that I didn't necessarily feel good about on the one hand, but also felt very good about on another hand, right? And you know, really struggled with that a little bit, but also I sort of rode the wave of the affair for a while. It was like a wave that I knew was something that - I knew it was a ride I knew was going to end with the child coming, but I and I told my affair partner that the baby was coming and you know, but I kind of rode the ride, rode the wave, if you will, for a little bit and really expanded our relationship, but there was always this sense of an expiration date with the child the baby coming, you know.

Marie Murphy: Okay, a self-imposed expiration date.

Michael: Exactly. Yeah.

Marie Murphy: Remind me, did you end the affair after the second kid came?

Michael: Right before. It was it basically a conversation that's said where I said, look, I have this baby coming. I have to focus on the baby and that ended at that time pretty amicably, I would say, you know, just recognizing like the baby was coming and but definitely there was still this connection and we still worked together. So we still had this career connection and probably still some of the friendship connection, right? But honestly, the affair part of it or let me say this, the physical parts of the affair, I should say, right, stopped. Yeah. And really I was very much focused on the new baby and…

Marie Murphy: Sure. Had your hands full.

Michael: Yeah. And then we had the new baby for a while, still again, nothing really changed in the relationship with my ex-wife. I didn't, I think fully take full responsibility. I didn't attempt to change things either. Like I didn't maybe either didn't know how or didn't try, right at that time. There was then the affair kind of rekindled a little bit.

Marie Murphy: Yeah. So tell us about that. And also, I want to make sure we flagged the like incident with the like photo discovery.

Michael: Yep, that comes up.

Marie Murphy: It's all coming. Okay, good. I'm just making sure that I'm remembering correctly what actually happened. Okay. Good.

Michael: Yeah. No, that comes next. Or the affair rekindled for a brief amount of time again because I once I was taking care of the kids and feeling, you know, like I had a handle on that almost. I think I think it settled in the issues I was still having personally with my relationship with my ex and yeah, again, fully acknowledge rather than addressing the issues, I sort of - I started to lean into something where I had felt good about something before and that was the affair, you know, and reconnected and it was great. It was again, lots of passion, lots of talking, like lots of communication, you know, emotional connection, feeling desired, all this stuff, right?

Marie Murphy: Intimacy on many different levels.

Michael: Exactly. But again, again with children and perhaps like filling with guilt, just feeling like there was an expiration date. Like I didn't have a path yet where I had seen where I would go get out of my marriage or and move forward with the affair, you know, or my affair partner, even though I felt this really strong connection to her, I just didn't, at that time, I don't think I had the tools to manage or to work through what I was dealing with both in my marriage and then also with the affair partner. And so I ended up sort of scaling that back again, the affair. It was not too far after that actually though that I had some photos in my email that just of me with my affair partner just being out and about and, you know, my ex-wife discovered them. And so there was definitely a hard time right there, you know, being found out, a lot of guilt.

Marie Murphy: And remind me how you handled it. What did you say about the whole thing?

Michael: I acknowledged it. I said, I had an affair. I also said it was over because at the time, you know, it was, I'd sort of ended it at that time. And you kind of had to let the emotions happen at that time because there was a lot of anger and you know, understandably from my ex-wife and guilt on my part. I did say I wanted to see about trying to see if we could fix the relationship because she had asked if that's what I wanted to try. We did try that. We went to, you know, marriage therapist. I don't think we had good experiences with therapy, I'll be honest. Both it was hard to find get into them, like get find ones to get into and then when we did, it just didn't feel like we were at the stage where we connected with the therapist and had the ability to have communication beyond that. So it kind of died down. Like it started, it was going and then it just

Marie Murphy: You started the effort to try and see what was possible in your marriage, you mean.

Michael: Exactly, but including the therapy and trying and talking to a therapist routinely, but didn't it didn't seem to move us in a direction. Because we weren't always good at communicating, we also didn't acknowledge that it wasn't moving in a direction. So I kind of set back into the original pattern of just being roommates, not acknowledging, you know, things were going on. That went on for I would say a couple years or year, yeah.

Marie Murphy: Okay. And all that time the affair is on, not on?

Michael: Not on, not really on. So this was also around the pandemic happened and the like so there was by default like physical disconnection, right?

Marie Murphy: Sure.

Michael: Still worked together, still talked frequently. But not in any way a physical affair, I would say, even not like maybe not really emotional because there wasn't a lot of chance to connect emotionally either, you know. But still connected. It never kind of went away. It was just kind of there. And then so not connected there, not connected on my relationship, you know, the home front.

Marie Murphy: The spouse front.

Michael: Yeah, very much I would throw myself into my kids, like work on being with my kids, but I think just continued to struggle with just not feeling connected to people. And then you had the pandemic on top of that, right, you know, just feeling very isolated in a way.

Marie Murphy: Remind me if this was the case, I mean, I could be totally making this up, but there's an element of like, here you are, like physically present with your spouse but not feeling connected to her. And then there's this longing for this other person, but not really having the opportunity to connect with her in the way that you would have liked to.

Michael: Constantly feeling that way where during the day, like with my ex, just not connected on that way, but thinking about my affair partner, what was she doing? What was she up to, right, like, you know, missing her significantly. Definitely longing for her and longing, also for that feeling of being wanted, right? Like that emotional connection. And so, yeah, it was a very lonely place, I would say. And I wasn't sleeping well. I was definitely still felt the guilt, right, around having the affair. My ex knew about the affair, but still felt the guilt about it, but also felt the guilt about wanting the affair partner. But also just, yeah, really missing that person and…

Marie Murphy: Really missing her.

Michael: Yeah. And you know, I think it was around I started to look into things online or, you know, support for people who had affairs and who might be struggling with that. There was again, there was some therapy, but it didn't seem to connect with me. And, you know, a point about that I think is important. I think at least one part of why the therapy didn't work is I don't think I was being honest with myself necessarily about the marriage and wanting it. Like outwardly I was saying I wanted it to work, but I think inwardly, I don't think I had fully acknowledged that I think there was a part of me that just didn't want it to continue. Right?

Marie Murphy: Yeah, totally.

Michael: I don't think I'd registered that, but so if you're just going through the motions of therapy, it doesn't work. I'll tell you that right off the bat, yeah.

Marie Murphy: Yeah. No, thank you for saying that. I mean, I, you know, I go round and round with people about this all the time. Like if you want to do therapy by all means with your spouse or partner or whatever, by all means do it. But if you yourself aren't sure of what you want, it's a total waste of everybody's time and energy. But the thing to your point, since we don't talk about this or all any or all of these things collectively that much in the way that I do, people don't know this. So they're like, oh, well the right thing to do is try and repair my marriage or save my marriage or whatever. So of course I'm going to do the couples counseling thing because that's just the right thing to do, isn't it? Or that's that'll fix it. That'll help. But when you don't know yourself what you want, good luck.

Michael: Exactly. It's almost something like this happens and I think there's an expectation that you'll just go to therapy and that you'll try and repair the marriage that way. And honestly, if that's what you want to do, that's great. That is true. Like you should follow, you should go down that path.

Marie Murphy: 100%. Let me just interject and say that for some people I work with, that is their path and it works out great for them.

Michael: Yeah. I could absolutely see that. I just it just doesn't work out great for everyone. The best word I can describe for where I was at the time that I found, you know, your website, I found you online, your online presence if you will, was stuck. I was stuck. I was didn't know how to process getting out of my marriage. I was stuck doing anything with my affair partner or anything out of that. And I was just in this period of inaction, like not sure where to go, not sure how to get out of it. And again, it felt like it was multiple years. You feel like that's a long time, you know, to be in that state where you're just not, you're just focused on the day-to-day and not trying to move your life in an intentional direction.

So I was stuck and I just, I started to creep around the internet and find, you know, look for resources. You know, I found some things, you know, some discussions on YouTube or whatever, you know, like there were things out there, but I came across your, you know, site and I think you were the first that where your whole niche was this focus, this area that I found, right? And I tried to look around, I really didn't see anything else that was out there at the time anyway. And you know, I just was intrigued. I looked to find content that you would put out online and at that time, I think you had some videos out for like the intro videos of how to go through this process. And I remember taking notes and like diving into that. I was like watching the video like more than once, I think diving into sort of the intro discussions, just the intro of what you get into once we started working together. And I was eating it up basically and then I discovered the podcast and that every one of those I think I inhaled them all.

I was using that information. I was absorbing it, but not yet acting, still feeling stuck. Another part of this is that I started to feel even more lost. My affair partner had started to date and I was thinking, "Oh, I've lost out on this thing that I had and just feeling very lost at that time. And I just said, "Okay, that may not happen, like nothing with that the affair partner may happen, but I'm not happy with where my life is with my marriage and so I connected with you, got going and you know, it was ultimately life altering. you gave me some tools, a lot of tools that helped me get unstuck, helped me decide one way or the other and really decide, not go through the motions of deciding.

Marie Murphy: Right, right. Not think about the decision, not like tiptoe up to the precipice of a decision, but actually decide.

Michael: Like there was this explicit meeting - call where we had and that you asked, "What do you want to do?” Where we got to that point and I had to make a decision. And I remember that one in particular because once I made it and once we gotten going with our process, I felt this, I certainly felt lost because of I had made a decision about essentially ending my marriage even if it hadn't acted on it yet, I definitely felt this loss, but I also felt curious if you will about like, okay, where could this lead to? And I do want to say that for your audience, if you will, that you never pushed me in one way or the other. It wasn't like you said, you should do this. No, it was mostly about helping me get to a decision that I wanted to make. And I never felt pressure to go. Like it could have been like I want to rekindle my marriage and I feel like you would have helped me with that. But honestly, you just helped me get unstuck.

Marie Murphy: Yep. And let me say this to the listening audience. You know, everybody works on their own timeline and that is perfectly okay. But Michael here, I want to say that it was like, it was within like a few sessions that you came to a decision about what you wanted to do. And it was within like maybe a couple or a few more sessions that you acted on your decision. And I am not saying this to suggest that everybody should operate on this same timeline. But you didn't fuck around.

You were like, "I'm coming to you for help." And some people say like, "I want help, I want help, I want help," and what they kind of want is for me to like tell them what to do and then do it for them. But you did not do that. You were like, "Oh, great. I'm going to make use of these tools. This is like what I've done for homework. I'm coming to you for help based on what I have worked on since our last call and I am acting on what we work on together." And you didn't waste a minute.

Michael: Yeah, and I'll also say it's not like after the first session you'll feel like, okay, I'm good to go. There's a process we went through, I feel.

Marie Murphy: There's definitely a process. And I mean, the interesting thing for everyone listening is that there's this whole interesting arc to Michael's story that we're going to talk about here. But in terms of this initial quandary, do I want to stay in my marriage or not? If yes, what do I want to do about it? If no, what do I want to do about it? Michael didn't mess around. It was like, I'm going to move on this.

Michael: Yeah, I mean, again, you're giving me a lot of credit for that, but there were these years of time of being wallowing that I include as well.

Marie Murphy: Oh my dear, many folks come to me after years of wallowing and they still aren't ready to move. And it's interesting, we're going to reveal something later that you told me years later that I firmly believe played a role in your ability to make that decision and act on it quickly. And I think you probably know what I'm talking about, but if you don't, we'll talk about it later because it doesn't fit into the timeline right now. Anyway, so like, yeah, you decided, like I don't want to be married anymore. And then what did we do?

Michael: So first thing's first or at least as I recall it was you helped me develop the system of thinking about other people's - like how to react to other people's activities, emotions, how to react to my own, right? So there's a whole way of thinking about this that helps you take a step back or almost step out of the huge amount of emotions that will be going on with this kind of system, right? You learned that your feelings are determined by your thoughts and you control your thoughts, right? That you know, things around you are circumstances that are neutral. Like you they don't have to have bias one way or the other, good, bad or whatever, right? Your feelings will you might have feelings immediately to a to a circumstance, but that's because you're thinking something about it, right? And those thoughts can change, right? And I think I needed that because once I decided it was going to end my marriage and I'm feeling thinking about my ex-wife and hurting her, which are all valid things to feel, but would not have helped me get to the decision like to actually act on the decision. Like that guilt wasn't going to help me move forward to actually do the deed, if you will.

Marie Murphy: Do the thing. Yeah, do the deed.

Michael: And so I had to go through that process of thinking about it a little bit. And once we had built that system, it helped me to get to the point of we started to plan out the conversation. And okay, what do you want to say? It honestly was probably the most important conversation of my life, right? You know, in my head, I was very, very - feeling very guilty, very worried about how the conversation would go, worried about not initiating the conversation, worried about initiating the conversation and it going badly, right? Like worried that I might backtrack, worried you know, just worried about all the different aspects of it.

And so you gave me coaching on just talking you through, planning out the conversation, like we literally I think just mapped it out. Played it, played it out. And I can say all that planning is valuable. You need it. The conversation will never go exactly according to the way you plan it. You know, the actual conversation, that planning helped me initiate it. And once you're in it, you kind of have to just navigate the lay of the land as you're navigating it, but there were two key points.

One was I wanted to initiate the conversation and I didn't want to backtrack out and say, "Oh, maybe I'll rethink this or I decided it was going to end it and I ultimately, although not very well, like stuttering, you know, the way that conversation went is it didn't come out great, but it got to the point.

Marie Murphy: Exactly. And I just want to like stress that for everybody listening. It doesn't have to be pretty to be effective.

Michael: No. Yeah. There was a quote, I can say it, that really rang, it stuck with me from Leonard Cohen. Well, I learned actually just died this year. And it was right before I had the conversation that it just stuck with me that said, "Ring the bells that still can ring. Forget your perfect offering. There is a crack in everything and that's how the light gets in." That quote stuck with me right then I was thinking like this conversation is not going to be perfect. I it's going to be rough. And it was rough, but it got the point across. It certainly felt like you're on a roller coaster. I think I said this to you, that once I initiated it, you're going, you know, you're going down the roller coaster and you're on your way. But to get to that point was really important, to actually say the words and have that conversation was very important. You know, after that, a lot of things become, there's a lot of logistical things that you work through, but there's also emotional actual, you know, just you know, I still lived with my ex-wife. Like how do you navigate that?

Marie Murphy: Can I jump in here? So first of all, didn't Leonard Cohen die in 2016?

Michael: Oh, I thought it was I thought I read that he died in 2025. I don't know. I don't know.

Marie Murphy: Okay, we'll look it up later, but okay. Now I'm very confused. This is confusing.

Michael: I apologize if I'm wrong.

Michael: No, no need to apologize. I could be completely misremembering. Anyway, I still want to stress this. Like you were good and nervous about having the conversation as I recall. It's not like Michael was like, oh, it's not going to be a big deal. No problem. And I mean, I'm like feeling vicariously panicked as I even think about this. Like you weren't like, this is going to be a walk in the park, no problem. You were pretty worried, but you still did it anyway. And I think that part of the reason for that is because you really took the tools that we worked on together and made use of them.

Michael: Yeah, absolutely. I don't think I would have done it without going through the tools first and then the prep of the conversation which comes after you get the tools in place and you're thinking about it. The tools helped me in the conversation. You sort of have to execute them on the fly, like right rapidly, okay, she's feeling that, I don't have to think one way or I don't have to think badly about myself because she's feeling that or I don't, you know, or good or anything. I can think this way or that way and then it's going to lead to a new circumstance that you have to react to and practicing that with you was very helpful because once you're in the moment, you have to do it really sometimes very fast.

Marie Murphy: On the fly. Yeah, absolutely.

Michael: Yeah. Yeah. And so it gave me the preparation to have the conversation and then navigate the conversation afterwards and to, you know, fully acknowledge what my ex was feeling. You know, I take responsibility for my actions in terms of how she might be feeling towards those actions, right? But recognizing that this was what I needed and moving forward on it, you know, so, yeah, it was very challenging having the conversation. It was very challenging afterwards because she was, you know, it was not easy. She was very hurt. But I also think she also felt at least on some level that we hadn't been connected for several years either. That may have helped in a way us rebuild certain connections later which we can talk about.

Marie Murphy: This is something that I really want to stress about Michael's story. First I want to talk about like what happened really quickly after you decided to divorce. And I want to make sure that as we like go through this, we stress what's happened with you and your now ex-wife as we tell this story because if I may use this language, like you guys have a success story in how you have come through a difficult set of experiences and created something completely different. But first, I just want to stress like what happened really soon or like what your then wife said when you were like, you know, when you're like, "I want to divorce." What did she come to you with?

Michael: Yeah, so in the aftermath of it, we were figuring out living situations and I had started to look at apartments in the area, but she didn't really have a lot of family connections in the area. And so she had a desire to move to a different state on these, you know, East Coast to be closer to family. And so she came, you know, we had a conversation. We had many conversations after the first conversation. The one conversation is not the end. You have to have many. That’s like the first of many.

Marie Murphy: The first conversation, yeah.

Michael: Yeah. And she asked about moving and wanting and whether, you know, either I could move or I would stay and then we would figure out the children and how to navigate that. And, you know, and I knew from legal perspectives, there probably couldn't move with because of the children unless I gave the go ahead and decided that it was okay. And I spent a lot of time, it wasn't like I had to decide right then, but I had to think about it, think through it. And honestly really at that time thought I have a career here, but I probably could figure out a career elsewhere. And my affair partner, my prior affair partner, we weren't really connected, like, you know, we weren't dating or anything.

Marie Murphy: Yeah, it seemed like the relationship was off the table and might remain off the table.

Michael: Yeah. And so I didn't have a lot that said, "No, I need to really push back on this." And so I really thought about it and I thought, and this was very important to me. I think I committed that even though we were ending our marriage, I was committed to trying to have a healthy co-parenting, you know, relationship just afterwards where we could still help each other in some ways even, right? But certainly be present for the children and I really put that in my head that was something I was aiming for. And I honestly thought in my head was like, this decision is something that will really help build that.

Marie Murphy: Okay, let me just interrupt you and say, listen to what Michael just said everybody. I've got so many people who are like, well, how can I know what my future ex-spouse is going to do? I don't know what they're going to do. Maybe they won't contribute to having a good co-parenting relationship. And that is true. But you still have the power to decide what you are going to do to contribute to that happening.

Michael: Yeah, 100%.

Marie Murphy: And you did that.

Michael: Yeah, I think in general, what I learned out of this is from relationships is that you can choose what you want to bring to the relationship.

Marie Murphy: Yeah. Anyway, let me just kind of like cut to the chase for everybody. Michael moved states. His ex-wife was like, "Okay, so I want to move. I want to be closer to family." And you ultimately said, "Okay, I will do it." And you did it. And all of this happened within like a few months.

Michael: Correct.

Marie Murphy: It was like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

Michael: Yeah. It was very quick. Yes, it was very quick. You know, again, I had to think through that. I wouldn't recommend people just do that if they you know…

Marie Murphy: You don't have to.

Michael: And going back to that, just make sure you're making the decision for yourself that you, you know, that's right for you.

Marie Murphy: For reasons that you like. Yeah.

Michael: Exactly. Yes. But honestly, that whole process of working with you and then going through this had helped me become better at doing that, making decisions that I wanted to make for, you know, that felt right for me, right? Right. And so I made the decision. I had a I can exactly state that my reasons for wanting to do so and it exactly met those reasons, which is it helped create a positive relationship to some degree with my ex-spouse and so I moved. Yeah, moved.

Marie Murphy: She was still your future ex-spouse at this time. Like the divorce was like nowhere near final. It was just like, I'm agreeing to move. We're going to figure out the details as we go.

Michael: Yeah. Lawyers listening will be like, "No, don't do it. Don't do it." Yeah, lawyers will say that. But you know, I think at that stage, we had several conversations and it helped to have some of those conversations where I it brought forth like, look, I'm not leaving you in the lurch, right? Like I'm not just going to cut you off or whatever. We're not going to interact and not going to help each other, not going to work through this, right? Like we have to if she's willing to work with me, I'll be like we can work together on this, you know, and I don't know how common that is or not, but for me, I got lucky in that way. Iit worked that we were on the same level or like wanting to do that.

Marie Murphy: I don't want to, you know, totally remove the luck factor here, but we make our own luck to a great extent. And you even, you know, even though you initiated the divorce, you were also like such a, how do I want to say this? Like just solid player in this situation, right? Like you were like, yeah, this is what I want to do. I want to make this change. and I want to work with you on this. Like you want to move states, like, okay, I will consider it and okay, I will do it. And like you weren't like being flaky, you weren't being a jerk, like these all these words are not like the best ones necessarily, but you were like, I want to co-create a good relationship with you.

Michael: And for the children, but yeah, in general, I think it was in some way that commitment to both to the children helped that too.

Marie Murphy: For sure. But even, I mean, what I see over and over again is that even when people really care about their kids, they still can't find the wherewith to, you know, be a, how do I want to say this? Like a just a non-hostile player with their future ex-spouse or their ex-spouse. And you totally just did that without any fuss or fan fair.

Michael: 100% can see that people going through this experience could have very negative views towards their ex on either side. And I really didn't want it. I didn't want that. I would there was enough reason for the negative feelings and they were there. They weren't going to go away, but I was trying to navigate to a place that where there's just this positive interaction. I'm really committed to it. Yeah.

Marie Murphy: Yeah. Yeah. And we'll talk more about this later, but that has continued, audience listening, that has continued to the and you know, this was a couple years ago now when all this was first going down. Now, the other thing, here's the parallel track that I want to point out. When Michael was deciding to talk to his wife about not wanting to be married anymore, there was no guarantee of what was going to happen with his affair partner. Like none. It was like off the table. And I think, you tell me if I'm wrong, but I think at the time, like after you talk to your wife and you were talking about your like affair partner or not affair partner, you were like, yeah, I don't know if it's possible, especially because I'm moving away. And I was like, why don't you call her and take her out to dinner? Why don't you call her and say like, "Hey, I've initiated a divorce. Like do you want to hang out?" And you were like, "I don't know, like what's she going to say?" Right?

Michael: Yeah. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, I was absolutely. Yeah. It became like a restart to the relationship.

Marie Murphy: So talk about that a little bit.

Michael: Yeah, we had continued to talk and work together, but not again, not in any, you know, emotionally connected way really. But once I had the conversation with my ex, you know, I let my affair partner know like that I'd done that and that was progressing and but you know, she was actually dating someone else at the time. So I didn't have any expectations of anything, right? It was just kind of giving an update in a way. And I was working through the aspects of the logistics of…

Marie Murphy: The move and everything and yeah.

Michae: Moving and letting my fair partner know I was moving, that actually was hard for her too. Like I it showed me that there was still some connections there a little bit, right? Yeah. She was a little upset about that I was going to move and I kind of I maybe I was naive or I don't know. I just was like, well, we're not really together but yeah, but at the time I even wanted that, right? like So I talked to you and you recommended, you know, just even just having a date, say like, you won't regret like asking and having it one date before you go, right or whatever. And so I aimed for that just to you know, maybe we could have a date and you know, I took her out to dinner and you know, we kind of continued - like we started to rebuild, I don't know, the relationship. And that was even despite moving, right? Like we're talking more, like there was some more dates before the move, but really I moved, like I did move and I was able to make it so that I could travel back to where I was and I would use those opportunities to see her and you know, just continue to grow the relationship you know, in the midst of also getting a you know, separation and divorce and whatnot.

Marie Murphy: Okay, so here's another thing that I just want to point out. Like a lot of folks are like, "Oh God, you know, like even if my former affair partner has left their relationship and so they're not really my affair partner now. And like now we're like just dating. Like if it's a long-distance relationship, then that means the relationship can't work." And you guys just tried to do it. You just worked on making it work. And I mean, there were definitely some challenges with that.

Michael: Yeah, absolutely. I think uh every relationship has them, but the decision to try like it just kept going, just keep trying and it definitely challenges like thinking about how to navigate being in two places or would want to like would she move or what like but…

Marie Murphy: Yeah, there were a lot of questions about like, okay, if this relationship continues, like where am I going to be? Like my kids are in one place. My girlfriend is in another place. Like what's this going to look like? There was a lot of like consternation around that for a while.

Michael: Exactly. Yeah. All that yeah, it was constant, but it was still there was this connection and commitment to trying to make it work. And just kind of work worked through those, had to have conversations. Ultimately led to conversations about, okay, you know, we want this to keep going, but we don't want to be in two different places. How do we move this forward? And fortunately, we were able to talk about having her move as well, which is - I was very thankful for and very happy about. And actually, we are now married.

Marie Murphy: Yes, let's just like cut to the punchline and then we'll fill in the details. Yeah. So you and your former affair partner are now married. Yep. There's a what on the way?

Michael: There is a baby on the way.

Marie Murphy: There's a baby on the way. Yep. And what's your relationship with your ex-wife like?

Michael: Yep. It's very - continues. Even before all this, remember we're back going back, it was very focused on the children and the parenting the kids. That continues, right? It's just two people living in not actually not too far away from each other, heavily focused on, you know, the primary focus being on the children and making a good life for them. Yeah, but we talk to each other if we need that we like literally can go to each other's places if we if needed to get, you know, stuff for the kids or whatever. We go to the same events for the kids, right? Like we…

Marie Murphy: And correct me if I'm wrong, but like you and your ex-wife and you and your current wife, who is your former affair partner, they've met, right?

Michael: They've met.

Marie Murphy: And they hang out a little bit like.

Michael: And my ex-wife knows…

Marie Murphy: Yeah, that she is your former affair partner. Right.

Michael: Yes, she knows that. They've hung out, like we've been in the same, like we've had holidays together, you know, Thanksgiving, like all that kind of stuff. You know, there's always going to be like some awkwardness around it, I'll say, or maybe I don't know if always, but there's some awkwardness sometimes, but it kind of again, if everybody involved is like committed to like, "Okay, let's just make this work." It seems to work. You know, it's very amicable, like whatever there's times, there's going to be conflicts, you know, there might be conflicts about things, but we kind of talk through them and they're willing to listen to like what the other person is looking for or wants. And that helps a lot too. But overall, it's about as good as I could have imagined out of all this, you know, we live in the same city. We again, we go to all the same events with the kids. Like we have, you know, she's dating someone so…

Marie Murphy: She meaning your ex-wife.

Michael: My ex-wife, excuse me. Yeah, my ex-wife is dating someone, and it's just it's worked out thankfully. Yeah.

Marie Murphy: You know, it's so, okay, let me just explain to everybody listening. Like some clients come to me and they're in the midst of an infidelity situation and we work together for a period of time and we deal with their infidelity situation and then they say thanks, bye. And that's totally fine. And other people choose to continue working with me because they just like our coaching relationship. And Michael is one of those people. Like we worked together for what, like two and a half years or something?

Michael: Yeah, yeah, we continued. We had the conversation, like I had the conversation and went through the you know, the divorce, the separation, all that stuff. And then I just needed, I felt like I wanted and needed this continued coaching. You know, it was very valuable to me. It wasn't just focused on the infidelity situation, but just again, building on the tools. The tools that you gave me, they work in all sorts of situations. And you just you do an excellent job of applying them to the infidelity situation, but you can continue to apply them to relationship struggles or relationship challenges and that tied that in too that it connected like that I think it helped me build towards this amicable relationship and the relationship with my now wife, former affair partner, right? It just continued to help me to build towards that. And yeah, I've very much valued the guidance that I've had and coaching. Yeah, so it so I continued it. It was several years, multiple years after.

Marie Murphy: Yeah. And the reason why this is important is because like I don't remember exactly when this was, maybe it was sometime last year. I think, maybe, who knows? Time is weird, but you told me that you had a motto. And when I heard what your motto was, I was like, this makes so much sense.

Michael: Yes.

Marie Murphy: Tell everybody what your motto is.

Michael: Yeah, it's we'll figure it out.

Marie Murphy: We'll figure it out.

Michael: Yeah, I realized that my family had been saying it a lot that it's just something that it just came naturally where we didn't have everything, all the details worked out of anything that we were addressing, but we would realize, you know, "Okay, we'll figure it out." Yeah, right?

Marie Murphy: Right.

Michael: The point was to not get caught up with the details and thinking through the details necessarily to prevent you from moving on the activity, right, or the action. And it helps, it helped in the situation of the infidelity, but it also you know getting to the to the divorce and whatnot, but also just in general, like relationship wise, it's we'll figure it out. We don't know exactly and you do have to figure it out. You can't just use it to push off the decision, right? But it helps not to get bogged down with the thinking about it, you kno

Marie Murphy: Yes. When I heard that, I mean, it's kind of funny because like sometimes like people kind of broadcast their mottos on their foreheads. And sometimes I notice this and sometimes I don't. Like sometimes the motto is like, "I need to know all of the details before I can do anything." And I'm not saying this to judge anyone. I'm guilty of thinking that way sometimes myself. You know, sometimes it does help to know a lot of details, but sometimes it really doesn't.

But with Michael, like your actions have really demonstrated that this is part of your operating system. Like we'll figure it out. Yeah. And what I want to suggest to everybody is that you can adopt this kind of thinking too to your benefit. And it may not come as naturally to you, you, the general you, as it does to you, Michael. And that's okay. But part of the beauty of having a human brain is that we can start to intentionally think the way that it helps us to think instead of just letting our monkey minds boss us around and drive us crazy. And if you're lucky enough to have that as your default thinking, like we'll figure it out, then good for you. But if you don't have it as your default thinking, that's okay. You can cultivate a new default way of thinking that serves you well.

Michael: Absolutely.

Marie Murphy: And what we have seen, sorry to interrupt, but what we have just let me say this, what we have seen with you over and over is that you have figured it out. You've figured out the next thing and the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. And it's all going pretty darn good.

Michael: Yeah, feel very good about where things are at. I think that we'll figure it out is a it becomes a, yeah, an operating system as you said, to process new things that will come. It doesn't mean you're not going to have any problems. You figuring it out takes effort, right? But you don't have to get bogged down worrying about the effort and the details to get started. And honestly, going back to the conversation of having the divorce and saying I don't want to be married anymore, I use that roller coaster analogy, but you just have to start that conversation. And once you're on it, you're on it. And yes, are there opportunities where you backtrack? Sure, but again, you starting that conversation is a really important step.

And we'll figure it out like helps me deal with any new problem that comes around because I don't have all the answers right away, right? And I don't want to wait necessarily to have the exact right answer before taking an action, you know. But yeah, it's feel very fortunate about to be where I'm at today with you know, my former affair partner, now wife, you know, I have my ex-wife, very amicable partner, you know, co-parenting partner, and very, I think my perception is I think she's in a happy place too, which is good. And you know, I think we're just navigating the normal things of relationships and life now, you know, children and all that stuff. And again, a new baby on the way which will add more things to figure out, right? But yeah.

Marie Murphy: Can I ask you about to what extent do your friends and your former affair partner's now wife's friends and family know that your relationship started as an affair? Is that like public knowledge? Is it limited knowledge? Some people know, right?

Michael: Yes. Definitely on the side of my affair partner, my now wife, you know, a lot her friends and I think some of her family also know how it started. In general, there's been some challenges with that with some friends because it was a difficult time, you know, affairs cause impacts not only to the people, the two people involved or not only to the wives or husbands involved, but they can even have impacts beyond that to people, you know, and that includes friends and maybe family and whatnot. And so there's been some challenges on that, but even that, there's some signs of improvements and you know, getting communications going and kind of just seeing that we're all people and we're seem to be moving in a good direction for every for people involved. So it's a case by case basis. Some people are just like, "Yeah, whatever, you know." And then others are, you know, maybe more caught up in it, but yeah, it's case by case. Yeah.

Marie Murphy: So I think you're I think you're alluding to a few really important things there. It sounds like you haven't told some people in your life that your relationship started as an affair.

Michael: That's correct. Yeah, there are some people I haven't mentioned it at all. Yeah.

Marie Murphy: Because why not?

Michael: I don't see why it's necessarily relevant to where things are today. Yeah.

Marie Murphy: Exactly. Exactly. You know, I can understand why some people are really concerned that they're going to have to explain the origins of their relationship to others, but A, I don't think that you ever owe anyone an explanation as to how any particular relationship started. But B, your point, Michael is like, it doesn't have to matter at all. And maybe it just doesn't come up.

Michael: Yeah, it doesn't have to be a conversation. I don't know. I just don't think it's something that happened now a while back that and it isn't even really the where this the relationship rekindled, right? And so for me, it's not, it's not really that relevant. For the people where it was relevant, I had to acknowledge it, take responsibility for my actions for it and I've tried to do that for the people where it was most impactful and really plays a role in our future interactions, right? That includes my affair partner, my wife, right? But friends, family, but for others it's just kind of like that, you know, I don't know, it just doesn't have to be a conversation, you know.

Marie Murphy: Right. And I think you also said for some people who do know, it's also not a big deal. Like some people may have had some thoughts about it, but for other people it's not a big thing.

Michael: Yeah, for people who are willing to just look forward and see, okay, things are in a very, seem like they're in a very good place right now and they're seem to be moving in a good direction. I think for people who care about the people involved, they're like that seems to be what matters most, which is good. You know, and honestly most almost everybody who knows, I think everybody actually who knows about the past of that can see is seeing that and moving in that direction. So like yeah, I don't anymore feel like there's like stragglers on it.

Marie Murphy: That's I'm reading between the lines in what you're saying and I'm hoping that means what I think it means and if it does, that's awesome. I'm thinking of someone specific here.

Michael: Yeah. Again, it impacts people, friends, family, right? Bbecause they can watch people in affairs can have strong emotions, right? And it's a really it's like a relationship that sits on a pin or moves around. Is it going to go forward? Is it not going to go forward, right? It just for people in these affairs like it's very powerful from a passion and emotion standpoint. It feels awesome, right? Yeah, it feels awesome.

Marie Murphy: But it also doesn't feel awesome sometimes. And when it doesn't feel awesome and you're telling all of your friends how unawesome that affair relationship is, and then you end up marrying your former affair partner, the friends are like, wait a minute, you're still the bad guy.

Michael: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I think acknowledging that, again, treat it as a neutral circumstance and how you think about it can change depending on what you want to think. But it was important to acknowledge it with people where it impacted and try and move things in the positive direction that things seem to be going. You know.

Marie Murphy: Amazing.

Michael: Yeah. It's very, you know, very excited about where things are going and to people out there who are struggling with would definitely highly recommend coaching. Marie is excellent. I highly recommend Marie, but again, she won't push you down any specific direction. You don't go in and you're like, okay, she's going to tell me to do this. No, it doesn't work that way, but you're stuck. If you were like me, you're stuck. She can just help you get unstuck. Yeah. And then help you with the tools to move down whatever path you choose.

Marie Murphy: Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for the plug. Much appreciated.

Michael: Yeah, I just want to make sure that I highlight that because it was very useful and helpful to me. Yeah. Again for even years after the after the you know, getting out of the marriage and whatnot. Yeah.

Marie Murphy: Yeah. And it was a delight to work with you. I just want to throw that love right back. Is there anything that you want to say about any of this that you think people would like to hear? Any musings that you want to close with? No pressure. If you've said everything that needs to be said, that's fine.

Michael: So one part that I think is important is I acknowledge I think my actions and the activities and everything that happened, it impacted people negatively at times. My ex-wife, again, family friends who are aware of things and I acknowledge that and in a way I want to say I am sorry for the impact that happened to people. It's not intentional in any way, but it happened and I acknowledge the role I played in it, you know. And so that's one thing is just for people, you know, I don't want people thinking that this was like, you know, he's just completely devoid of thinking about the other people around this, you know. There were a lot of people involved, maybe not all at the same time but or like right there, but they were being impacted in some way or another negatively. And so, you know, I acknowledge that.

And then the second thing is, yeah, I think just helping to get to the decision, helping you live in as a person intentionally, getting those tools that help you live intentionally with your decision making for your life, it feels really good once you've started to do that. You know, affairs, people do affairs because they feel awesome, right? They feel really good, very intense, very like they feel really good. But the long in the longer term, living intentionally and deciding how you want to live and you know, bringing your full self into your relationships and that feels even better. And it's like a slow build versus this like massive influx of good feeling like that an affair can probably bring like, but that slow build just keeps building if you can start to live intentionally and you know, choose things that make you happy.

And so I encourage people to, you know, if it's not with Marie or just learn those tools or help to get to that point, to get unstuck and get to that point because I think that's you will feel better about things. Again, I was in a state, I was not sleeping, I was feeling guilty all the time. I felt health declined. I felt like, you know, like everything like you're not helping yourself. You're not doing yourself any favors by sitting and waiting or hoping that things get better. Like you know, you might need some help to get across the finish line, you know.

Marie Murphy: Yep. Yep. Yeah, I've said it before on the podcast, but it's worth repeating. They say you have to do it all by yourself, but you can't do it all by yourself.

Michael: Yeah, that's a really, yes, it's at the end of the day, you're the one in the arena doing it. The coach really helps. Yeah. Coach is out there like helping, gives you the guide guidance and whatnot, but you have to do it. You do have to do it.

Marie Murphy: Yeah.

Michael: And that's not easy. None of this was easy. Yeah.

Marie Murphy: But you did it.

Michael: Yeah. But it was it was good to do it. And I think it helps people not the whatever harms or injury might have caused to people in the past, you can help make it get to a better state to help everybody involved too, you know, just by making a decision and going with it and…

Marie Murphy: Totally. I'm so glad you said that. I mean, some people lament like, "Oh, the harm I've caused," and it's like, well, okay, sure, that’s not unimportant to consider. But the way to deal with that, the way to make amends is by taking responsibility for your actions in the present.

Michael: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, that was mainly that first point I want to make. I take responsibility for it and I own it and I want to keep helping move forward myself and the people and you know, around me. And you don't, again, if you can, try to get that coaching. You don't have to do it alone. Yeah, like it was very helpful to me.

Marie Murphy: So glad. All right, one last question, Michael. What have you learned from this whole experience about the importance of being faithful to yourself?

Michael: So one, on one level, I can literally see that not being faithful to yourself has quite literally physical implications for your body. Again, not sleeping, I felt like I was getting sick more often, health decline, right? You're just everything you do would seem false in a way and you start to wonder like can people trust me? Can I trust me? Right? You know, it really has an impact on your health. It has an impact on the other people around you. So living truthful to your self in the reverse can physically help you.

Like you feel better, you'll I think you'll have better physical health in general, but also for the people around you, it has positive benefits all around. People know who where you are. They know who you are. They know where you like you stand and they can react better to the truth that you're living, right? I think being truthful to yourself, I really, I was living in a very dark place and it was entirely because I wasn't being truthful to myself and to others. So those are two things that are very, you know, one that you can literally can physically impact you. You'll get sick, things like that. But also, if you are living truthful to yourself, it can have positive impacts to not only yourself, but everybody around you too. And I think that's very valuable.

Marie Murphy: Amen to that.

Michael: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's been a long road to get here. Before working with you, a lot of wandering, aimless wandering and wallowing, if you will, wondering and wallowing. But I feel very glad to have worked with you and to come get to where I am today. I had to do it, make the calls, make the decision and you really helped me get there. So I appreciate that and I hope to continue bringing that forward with my new, you know, my relationship now with my new wife, you know, with my kids and then my now ex-wife, co-parent, where we just continue to have positive interactions and you know, can figuring keep figuring it out.

Marie Murphy: Keep figuring it out.

Michael: Yeah. Love it. Michael, thank you so much for sharing your story with us. I'm going to say bye for now.

Michael: Yes, thank you very much. I appreciate all the time we've worked together, Marie.

—

All right, everybody. I hope you enjoyed listening to Michael's story. I am so immensely grateful that he was willing to be a guest on this podcast. If you are ready for my help with resolving your infidelity situation in a way that you feel great about, let's get to work.

If you want to be a private client of mine, go to my website and sign up for an introductory coaching session. If you want to enroll in my self-guided course, go to my website and enroll in You're Not the Only One. In the course, I teach you all of the essential tools I teach my one-on-one clients, but you get my teachings in a format you can access anytime and at your own pace. Once you enroll in You're Not the Only One, you have access to the course materials 24/7 online and that might be a very convenient and therefore great thing for you. When we work together one-on-one, we set up appointments and we actually talk and that might be a great thing for you. Whichever option you choose, you can get started by going to my website mariemurphyphd.com. I can't wait to meet you.

All right everybody, thank you all so much for listening. Bye for now.