239: After the Affair: When Infidelity Becomes the Beginning of a New Life

Hi everyone, I'm Dr. Marie Murphy, and I'm a non-judgmental infidelity coach. If you are cheating on your partner or having an affair, or you're the other person, or you're engaging in anything you think counts as infidelity, I can help you deal with your feelings, clarify what you want, and make decisions about what you're going to do. No shame, no blame, no judgments. When you are ready to start dealing with your infidelity situation in a way that's truly right for you, I can help you do it.

There are two ways you can have me as your coach. We can work together one-on-one via Zoom or you can enroll in my self-guided course, You're Not the Only One. To get started with either of these options, go to my website, mariemurphyphd.com. Together, we will find you some relief and a clear path forward.

In today's episode, I'm sharing another conversation with a podcast listener who has made it through the challenges of her infidelity situation and is thriving on the other side of it. Katie and I talk about her experiences with her Mormon marriage, her desire to feel loved and appreciated and desired, the joy she found with her affair partner, and how her life has changed as a result of her experiences with infidelity. We also have a really great conversation about the legitimacy of anger and how we can balance empathy for another person with our anger about their actions. It's a rich and poignant conversation, and I hope you enjoy it.

So many of the stories we hear about people's experiences with infidelity emphasize how awful infidelity is and how it destroys people's lives and how if you've engaged in infidelity, you're doomed to be miserable forever. But even if those stories are true or have elements of truth within them, they aren't the whole truth. They aren't everyone's truth. So I'm tremendously grateful to Katie for sharing her story and for helping us change the collective conversation around infidelity.

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Marie Murphy: Hi Katie.

Katie: Hi.

Marie Murphy: It's so nice to have you here. Thanks so much for joining me today.

Katie: You are welcome. It's a pleasure, and it's scary. Being honest.

Marie Murphy: Thank you for saying that. Say more about the scary part. Why is it scary to talk about this stuff?

Katie: Because it's very taboo to have an affair, even though I know it's common, and especially with my religious background and just kind of the culture I live in and it's like not cool. It's very shameful.

Marie Murphy: Yeah, do you mind saying more about your culture and religious background?

Katie: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, also known as Mormons. So very, very conservative, and we're taught from a very young age about the law of chastity and the importance of marriage and that you're marrying, it's an eternal marriage, and you make covenants in the temple. It's just very serious.

Marie Murphy: Yeah. Absolutely. I know a lot of people listening are going to be able to relate to that directly through their own experiences in LDS, and some people are going to relate to it indirectly through their own religious experiences, however different.

Katie: Right.

Marie Murphy: Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you for being willing to find the courage amidst the fear.

Katie: You're welcome.

Marie Murphy: And I, for everyone listening, I really want to emphasize, the fear is real. As Katie and I were just talking about before we started recording, I get all kinds of nasty messages from people who want to tell me how horrible I am for doing what I do, and it's unpleasant. I am relatively skilled at dealing with this at this stage of things, but it's not delightful to open an inbox and get some message from some stranger who has the nerve to tell me that I'm a horrible person, right? It's not delightful to deal with that stuff. And I think it's totally reasonable to feel a certain amount of trepidation when you're someone like Katie who's agreed to speak their truth and share their story in a public way. So thank you again. With that, we could say thank you all day. But with that, let's just talk about the details of your situation. What was your marriage like? What was your experience of that relationship like?

Katie: Overall, I would say it was just not a feeling of not being very connected. But it was functional in that we raised four kids, we coordinated things, we both worked hard and did some things together. And my ex is not a terrible person. I just think he had some things like in his childhood of his needs not being met and he wasn't really able to meet my needs in our relationship. And I'm sure I probably didn't meet some of his as well to be fair. I tried, I think we both tried.

Marie Murphy: Yeah, I think a lot of people will be able to relate to that. It's often challenging to meet our partner's needs in a relationship, but it's also really hard to do that when we get married at an age when we probably don't really know what the heck our needs are in the first place.

Katie: Yes, I was very young. He checked all the boxes, and I fell in love and didn't really see the things that wouldn't work because you can't really see it at that age.

Marie Murphy: Yeah. Yeah, and you know, even when we get married a little later in life, we change. People that may meet many of our needs at one point don't necessarily continue to make sense for us as a romantic partner as we evolve and our needs change and our preferences and priorities change too.

Katie: Right. Yeah, and just to kind of describe it more, it was just we just didn't talk much, and I had a really hard time talking to him about anything because of his reaction would kind of shut me down when I would try to share things. And he would, if I tried to address some difficult situation, he would turn it around and blame me for it and then I would end up crying and apologizing. And I felt like there were so many taboo subjects, and just he didn't reach out to me and help me feel loved. Didn't compliment me, didn't really show affection outside of the bedroom. And he probably and I know that he felt that I was not trying to connect with him either because he's like, you have your own life and you go and do fun things with your friends and you do this and that and you're just and you take care of all the stuff with the kids.

It just felt unsupported and I always just made excuses for it and I didn't make it mean, oh, we have a horrible marriage. I didn't make it mean that until in retrospect I was like, actually the marriage really sucked. Because now I'm in a much, much better relationship. I'm like, oh my gosh, I didn't even know this was possible. I thought it was all my fault this whole time. I thought it was me, blamed myself, tried to read books, tried to have these difficult conversations that did not end up going how I wanted. It's just so much better not being married now.

Marie Murphy: Amazing. Let's rewind a little bit and talk about how you got to that point.

Katie: Right.

Marie Murphy: You're in this marriage. It sounds like you knew that you were not satisfied with your marriage. Had the idea of getting divorced occurred to you before you met your other person? Was that something that you were actively entertaining? Where were you at in relation to your future with the marriage before you met the other person?

Katie: Right. I would have just said, no, I could never do that. But I did entertain the possibility a little bit to be honest.

Marie Murphy: Okay. Sure.

Katie: There's kind of a story behind that when it first like about a year before or a few months before, I don't know if you want me to get into that.

Marie Murphy: Yes, please.

Katie: Okay. So I went on a girls trip with some of my friends and it had been postponed because of COVID, but we ended up going in 2022 in March. And it was an awesome trip, and it was on a cruise ship. So my friends like to suntan. I don't. So they were sunbathing and I went to the adult area and got in the hot tub and this guy walks down the stairs and up the other stairs and I was just like, for some reason I was very attracted to him and I don't really, I wasn't in the habit of looking at other guys because I'm married so I don't do that. Anyway, I was just immediately attracted to him like, I'm just staring at him like muscles and so good looking. Anyway, but I just put it off.

And then as I was leaving the hot tub and heading down the other way, he was there and he stopped me and said, hey, who are you here with? And we started a conversation and we ended up working out together at the gym. He ended up going on an excursion with us because one of my friends got sick and couldn't go. And we were just friendly and he was a personal trainer so he helped me get confidence in that working out at the gym. And he was just a really nice guy. I kind of fell for him like big time. Like a huge crush. \ And I was like, oh my gosh, I can't believe. And I had all these fantasies of what if, because he was also divorced. He was divorced. I was not divorced. But he still hang out with us even though me and my friends were all married. Just because he was on the cruise alone by himself. And anyway, so I had these fantasies of how things could work out in the future. He lived across the country from me so it wasn't going to actually work. And we texted and stuff.

Marie Murphy: Wait, what was that like for you? What was this experience like?

Katie: I kept it, I mean I kept it platonic. I didn't never, I didn't ever cross any lines.

Marie Murphy: No, but still, I mean even so...

Katie: It made my mind open to the possibility of, oh my gosh, there could be something way better and I really want something better. That's when that longing started for something else.

Marie Murphy: Yeah. I bet it was amazing to connect with somebody and be excited about somebody in this kind of way. Even if it wasn't a relationship that crossed any lines.

Katie: Oh, it was very exciting. I was daydreaming about him all the time. And the fact that he showed interest in me...

Marie Murphy: Right.

Katie: I was like, maybe I am attractive still at my - being in my mid-forties.

Marie Murphy: Absolutely. Yeah. I think I say, I'm musing about this because I've had more than the usual number of conversations with people who have a lot of assumptions about infidelity in the last few weeks. And I think that one of the things that people often fail to understand is that a lot of what we think marriage or any committed relationship ought to provide isn't happening in a lot of marriages. We think that there ought to be this fidelity, but that fidelity isn't predicated upon mutual appreciation or mutual affection or anything that kind of feeds the sort of chemistry and desire and intimacy that many people want out of their committed relationships. I think that it's so important to remember that by the time someone cheats, there have often been years of just dying for more engagement within the committed relationship. And it sounds like that's what you're describing.

Katie: Right. And I did feel really guilty about all of these feelings. And I actually kind of doubled down on my marriage after that. Of like, we need to make this better because it's not good.

Marie Murphy: Yeah. Yeah, I saw a flicker of what's possible. Let's make that happen here.

Katie: Right.

Marie Murphy: And how did that go?

Katie: Not very well.

Marie Murphy: Yeah.

Katie: I would say. I think it just ended up worse, I don't know.

Marie Murphy: Some things just, and when I say things, I mean some relationships just aren't going to become what we would like them to be. We can try all day and all night to make things different, and that doesn't mean that things are going to change in the way that we would like them to. And I don't think that has to be a tragedy. Anyway, that's a whole other tangent. Tell us about how after you meet cruise guy, and then you try to double down on your marriage, and then what happens before you meet the other person?

Katie: Like in between that time?

Marie Murphy: Yeah, how are you feeling? What were you thinking about?

Katie: Well, one thing that was during that time was because he kind of inspired me to work out, I had always worked out. Cruise guy had inspired me to work out. I have always worked out, to be clear. I have always worked out at home, and I never had the confidence to go in a gym. And I thought, I didn't want to spend the money and all that. So I actually hired a personal trainer and started working out with a personal trainer at a smaller gym and then joined a bigger gym. And that's actually where I met my affair partner.

Marie Murphy: Okay.

Katie: At the bigger gym. So it really was leading to that, or like...

Marie Murphy: Yeah.

Katie: It was a huge part of that. And I actually look, because I hadn't really done that intensity before, my body got some good recomposition, gained some muscle, lost some body fat. I thought I looked pretty good, okay. And I was trying to get some attention from my husband for that, but that did not go well. He has a hard time giving compliments. Like literally doesn't compliment me. Or didn't at that time. Obviously doesn't now either. But I remember telling him, I would really love it if you would tell me that I look pretty or that I'm beautiful or attractive or sexy or anything. And he did, one time he did say when I was dressed up nice and everything, he did say, you look nice. I'm like, thank you. And then in my mind I'm like, that sounded like you were talking to your grandma.

Marie Murphy: Right.

Katie: It did not make me feel like an attractive woman. I was like, I look dang good, and you don't even do or say anything. I just felt like, oh, anyway.

Marie Murphy: Yeah. Yeah, you know, this is such a pervasive theme in my conversations with clients. Many of us want to feel appreciated and desired and admired by our partners. And when that isn't there for a long time, especially when we're asking for it, it's kind of soul-crushing. It's like, here I am, this beautiful creature, and you don't see me? What's up with that?

Katie: Right. Exactly.

Marie Murphy: Ah, hard stuff. Okay, so just to kind of keep the story moving along here. So how do you meet Mr. other person? How does it, what's this moment like? Do you like catch each other's gaze across the gym? Does he come over and offer to spot you on your bench press? Like what happens?

Katie: Pretty close.

Marie Murphy: Cool.

Katie: Well, we were working out on different machines and he made some kind of noise while working out, how guys grunt and stuff with the noise.

Marie Murphy: Yeah, I know all about that.

Katie: I glanced at him. I was like, okay, whatever. And then continued working out. But then he came and talked to me and said, hey, do you want to do bis and tris with me? Biceps and triceps. I said, sure, because I was still really new at the gym, like only a couple weeks there. And so then we worked out together and then he invited me to go to a spin class, like the cycle class the next day, which I did, which was fun. And we worked out together that whole week. I met him on a Monday and then on Friday and this whole time I'm like, because he was older than me.

And I was like, is he attracted to me? Is that why? Because he's a very friendly, social guy. He knows everyone's name. He talks to everybody at the gym. He's just being friendly. Right? Is what I was telling myself. And I'm like, should I tell him I'm married? Like if I say that, is he going to think, well, I wasn't trying to hit on you, so you don't have to tell me that? Or should I tell him like preemptively in case he thinks I'm attracted to him? I don't know. This is going on in my head. But on Friday, he asked me, hey, would you want to go out this weekend maybe for lunch or dinner? And I was like, oh, I'm married. Sorry, I can't. But thanks for asking.

Marie Murphy: Yeah.

Katie: So we just kind of continued to hang out at the gym, and I didn't work out with him quite as much, but we still talked to each other pretty much every day because he does the same exercises every time. And I want more variety than that, but we would work out on the same machines or, whatever. But he also invited like this other girl to work out with us sometimes, and she would join in. And I don't know. So it just felt like a friendship, you know?

Marie Murphy: Sure.

Katie: Yeah. And trying to think where I want to go next with details. Because he was like looking for people to date, I had a friend who was single.

Marie Murphy: How did you know that? How did you know he was looking for people to date?

Katie: Well, he was asking me out.

Marie Murphy: Okay.

Katie: And then that, you know, that precipitated the questions of how long have you been divorced and are you dating anyone and that kind of thing. Just in our conversations as we got to know each other. So I actually tried to hook him up with one of my friends and she ended up saying no. She wasn't ready. Well, actually, there's kind of a story behind that. She asked around like, do you know this guy? Her friends. And one of her, one of her friends' friends is his ex. Does that make sense? Like a friend of a friend is his ex. So of course she told that friend, oh no, don't date him. Who then told my friend. So that's the real reason she didn't date him. But anyway, she ended up meeting someone else who was very happy with and she's remarried so it's fine.

Marie Murphy: Lovely.

Katie: Anyway, so because I still had some personal training sessions at the other smaller gym I was at, I had gone to this one bigger gym because they allow, I think 12-year-olds and my daughter was 12. So during the summer, she could come with me. And then I actually canceled my membership to go back to the other gym and keep using my sessions for another month or so. So then I wasn't seeing the new guy anymore. And I really missed him. And we would text still and I would even send him, I sent him a picture of like, I'm still working out, kind of a thing at the other gym. Anyway, one time I was, one night I was on my way to book club and as I was going there, which was closer to his area of town, they said, oh, I can't do it right now. Let's do it a half an hour later. And I was already on my way there…

Marie Murphy: To your book club.

Katie: To the book club. So I would have had to go home and then immediately turn around and go back. I didn't want to do. And I was like, he lives over here. Maybe I'll text him and see if he's home. So I texted him. Hey, I have like 20 extra minutes. What if I stop by and said hi? So I ended up going over to his house. And that's kind of where it turned from a friendship into something more.

Marie Murphy: Yeah.

Katie: And he answered the door without his shirt on. I was like, oh, wow, nice. Because he is a very buff, muscular…

Marie Murphy: Toned man.

Katie: Toned man. Yeah.

Marie Murphy: Well, he better be if he's at the gym every day. I'm kind of joking, but yeah.

Katie: Yeah.

Marie Murphy: One would think.

Katie: Yes. So that's where I crossed the line from a friendship to something more. And I did kind of have a feeling about it at the time as I was going over there like, I shouldn't do this. This is not appropriate. But I'm so drawn to him and so attracted to him. A very positive, upbeat person and he does know how to compliment, compliments me every day.

Marie Murphy: Amazing. Oh, well, we'll save that. Okay. So we're inserting spoilers into this conversation. So okay, aside from the like, I really shouldn't be doing this as you're driving over there, whatever happened that day where or that evening when you know, you show up at his house and he answers the door with his shirt off, what was that like for you?

Katie: Well, I was nervous about it, but it was like really good to see him. Like I feel good when I'm around him. So then after I had crossed the line of going over there, I was like, well, now I know where he lives. And now when I have another opportunity, maybe I'll go over there. And then I would try to make excuses or reasons that I need to leave and go over there and hiding it, not telling anybody.

Marie Murphy: Sure.

Katie: At all, of course.

Marie Murphy: So what's this nascent relationship like in its beginning? Is it clear to the two of you that there's something happening here or is it kind of like, oh, we're going to pretend like we don't know what's going on or what?

Katie: I think it was clear to both of us. We gave each other a hug for the first time that night. And things just gradually progressed and I would always be like, no, I can't. I'm married. I wouldn't kiss him for the longest time, even though he was hugging me and grabbing my butt, stuff like that. Even though there was other stuff going on. I was like, I can't do that. I can't, I'm married, you know, I can't do that. So a lot of torn feelings of feeling like, this is wrong. I can't believe I'm doing this. I'm going to ruin everything. You know, I have four kids. I can't do this. Like I'm going to ruin my life kind of a thing.

But then also like, I'm falling so in love with him. He's the best. This would be so much better. Like, yeah, it was just really hard that whole time. It was really hard. A lot of guilt, but also very exciting. So I was falling in love with him and receiving affection in a way that I hadn't before. And I could talk to him about anything, and he was so understanding and like, he would ask me about my day. My husband didn't hardly ask me that.

Marie Murphy: Yeah.

Katie: And he wouldn't just like, how was your day? And then he say a few things and that's it.

Marie Murphy: Yeah.

Katie: He'd be like, oh, tell me more. What else? He would draw more out of me. I’m more of an introverted person, so I don't naturally talk a lot unless people are asking me questions, and he was very good about drawing me out.

Marie Murphy: Amazing. So I know the answer to this question, but tell me what happened from there. What was the next kind of chapter in the book here? What was the next plot twist?

Katie: Well, our physical relationship continued until a couple months later that we did have sex. And it was amazing. As it probably is for a lot of affair people, because it's so exciting but so taboo or like kind of wrong. But you know how exciting it is to do something kind of wrong. Very exciting.

Marie Murphy: I mean, yes, that's an element of affair sex for a lot of people for sure. But what and tell me where I'm wrong, but what it sounds like you're saying is that it was amazing in ways beyond that, not just amazing in that it's exciting because it's kind of forbidden, but...

Katie: Oh, yes. Right, just the way that he touched me and the way that it wasn't just like get in one position and stay there. Which is kind of what it was before. It was a lot of variety and it was a lot of talking like before we wouldn't really talk.

Marie Murphy: You and your spouse, yeah.

Katie: With my husband, we didn't really talk. But in this relationship, I could just say whatever was in my head, and he loved it.

Marie Murphy: Yeah.

Katie: I could say the silly, goofy things. I could make jokes and puns. I could say sexy thoughts.

Marie Murphy: Yeah.

Katie: And everything. And he loved it. And I loved it too. And he reciprocated that.

Marie Murphy: And I bet that was wonderful.

Katie: Yes.

Marie Murphy: Yeah.

Katie: Definitely.

Marie Murphy: Yeah.

Katie: Yeah. So at that time, in my mind was like, okay, this is amazing. I want to keep this, but I have kids. I have two kids that are still teenagers and two that were adults at that time. And so this can't happen for another five years.

Marie Murphy: Yeah. I hear that a lot.

Katie: We're just going to keep this under wraps and then I'll get divorced after my kids have graduated from high school.

Marie Murphy: Okay.

Katie: Well, that didn't end up happening.

Marie Murphy: Right.

Katie: That’s a really long time to hide an affair. And I was not super good at it. And yeah, he found out.

Marie Murphy: He meaning your husband, ex-husband.

Katie: My ex-husband found out.

Marie Murphy: Do you mind sharing the details of how that went down?

Katie: I mean I had Find My Friends on our iPhones.

Marie Murphy: Oh.

Katie: And I was nervous about taking that off. So I left it on and I was just like, I'll just tell them that I'm at a friend's house. Like this is my friend's house that I'm at, you know. That kind of thing. And I'm trying to think how he originally suspected anything. It's kind of hard to remember because there were just a lot of things. Like I think I turned off Find My Friends and then he was suspicious and I at one point I told him, I'm in love with someone else, but then we just, we never talked about that.

Marie Murphy: What? Wait, wait, wait. Okay, let's just see if we can get a little more detail here just because this is such an important part of the story, at least to a lot of people. So you turned off Find My Friends and he noticed this and said something about it. Okay. And then you impromptu or apropos of nothing, you say to him like, hey, I'm in love with someone else. Are there any missing pieces here?

Katie: I know, right? Okay. It was brought on by a conversation that we had. Ah, I'm sorry that I am having a hard time remembering the details. I should I should remember these things.Because it was such an important part.

Marie Murphy: Well, no, actually, I think this speaks to something really important in that a lot of people think that like as their infidelity situation is difficult, it's going to define their life and they're not going to survive and like everything's just going to be bad. But what you're demonstrating in real time here is that even if these things are quite difficult at the time, you can get to a point where you literally don't remember the details.

Katie: That's true.

Marie Murphy: And that's kind of a win.

Katie: I guess.

Marie Murphy: So fair enough if you don't remember. I'm just asking for narrative purposes. It's not critical.

Katie: Right. Yeah, he had a suspicion and I know I made excuses that he didn't believe, which wouldn't have believed because they weren't true. And I think I did tell him, what did I tell him? I don't remember. I'm sorry.

Marie Murphy: No, that's okay.

Katie: I just know that I told him at one point, I'm in love with someone else. And then we didn't really talk about it and we just kind of continued on. I know, which is weird.

Marie Murphy: No, it happens all the time. Yeah.

Katie: And then I was like, I should really work on my marriage. There was a lot of back and forth with me being like, okay, I should really work on my marriage. I can't ruin this. And going to but I can't make it work. It's too far gone. It's too like we can never be compatible with each other the way we need. We can never meet each other's needs. So I should just stop. So there was a lot of back and forth this whole time and I broke it off with my affair partner several times. But then it never lasted very long because I would immediately realize this isn't going to work. So why am I doing this?

So he did the more of the final thing when it really came down when he found out I was actually sleeping with someone, because he didn't really know that, he just kind of expected it, is that I was meeting a friend for lunch, and then going to the grocery store afterwards, which I did meet that friend. But then afterwards, I met up with my affair partner, and because of a car issue, I was driving my husband's car. But then he, I forget what car he had. Maybe it was one of my kids' cars, or he had my car that he got work done on or something. I don't remember. Anyway, he ended up going to where I was.

Marie Murphy: Okay.

Katie: Because he had, I think I had turned back on Find My Friends at that point or something. So he went to where I was.

Marie Murphy: Your husband went to where you were.

Katie: And my husband went to where I was and he saw me kiss my affair partner goodbye as I was getting in the car to go home.

Marie Murphy: Okay.

Katie: Because he was like, where is she? She's been gone a long time.

Marie Murphy: Okay.

Katie: And my excuse was, oh, I went out to lunch. You know, we talked a long time and then we and I went to the grocery store because it was right next to a grocery store where we were. So but then he saw me with him. And then when I got home, oh, there was another thing that led to this too is that I think it was a different day actually. Okay, I'm sorry.

Marie Murphy: No, that's all right.

Katie: Okay, so we, my affair partner and I would go grocery shopping together on Saturdays. And so I was grocery shopping with him and unbeknownst to me, my husband's sister's husband, so my brother-in-law, was at the grocery store and saw me with this other guy and took a picture of us and he sent it to my husband. And then I went home, and then my brother-in-law came over.

Marie Murphy: Oh God.

Katie: Because he wanted to tell my husband and he had also texted him but he wanted to talk to him in person.

Marie Murphy: Yeah, tell him in person, yeah.

Katie: Right. But I was already there. So then he couldn't really talk about it and we just acted like it was normal that he showed up out of the blue. When he doesn't normally do that, you know. Oh, I just wanted to say hi. We were in the area kind of a thing. You know, and I had no idea at that time, but then later my husband confronted me about it.

Marie Murphy: Okay.

Katie: Okay, so that is part of the story.

Marie Murphy: Okay, so was this before the kiss sighting or...

Katie: This is before the kiss.

Marie Murphy: Okay. So there was the grocery store episode and then the kiss.

Katie: Yes. And so I had, you know, broken things off and like, okay, I'm not going to see him anymore and all that. And I did for like a couple days, and then I couldn't help myself and I just I was so drawn, so drawn to him, I couldn't stay away from him.

Marie Murphy: Yeah.

Katie: My affair partner that is. Then there was the kiss and then when I got home from that, he started packing up all his stuff.

Marie Murphy: He meaning your husband?

Katie: My husband started packing up his stuff.

Marie Murphy: Okay.

Katie: And confronted me about it and I admitted, yes, I am seeing him. And he asked, have you had sex? I said, yes. And he packed up his stuff and he went to his sister's house, who lives an hour away. So then I went to, you know, and we're both upset. And he told my sister later that he was really hurt by the fact that I didn't try to stop him.

Marie Murphy: Oh.

Katie: From leaving.

Marie Murphy: Yeah.

Katie: Because I didn't. He seemed very determined and very angry and I was like, okay, this makes it easy. He's just going to leave. Great. Okay. It revealed my true feelings, I guess. So I went and talked to my two teenage daughters and I confessed to them that I was having an affair and that I'm really sorry and it's all my fault. I'm ruining the marriage, you know, and just told them.

Marie Murphy: What was that like for you?

Katie: I was just really sad and devastated that I had done that to them. And you know, they knew that we didn't have that great of a marriage, I think, and that there were difficult things about relating to my husband. They had a hard time with some of the ways that he related to them. Like his humor, he joked around a lot and a lot of his humor was like a veiled criticism. You know? Just kind of that negativity. And they knew it's still very, very hard for kids. And they were, I believe, 13 and, sorry, three years older than that. Can’t think right now. 15. I think they were 13 and 15 at the time.

Marie Murphy: Okay.

Katie: Or 16, sorry.

Marie Murphy: That makes more sense.

Katie: 13 and 16.

Marie Murphy: That math sounds a little more like it. And how did they respond to what you said?

Katie: They were, I mean, they weren't angry. They were just sad with me and gave me hugs and said, it's okay, we understand.

Marie Murphy: Okay, so first of all, I just want to point out what a big deal it is that you just went directly to your kids who were at home and said, hey, this is what happened. This is what's happening.

Katie: Right, there was no way to hide it at that point. Like it's going to come out and being dishonest was very hard on me. I did not like that. I would much rather just tell the truth. And I was like, okay, I don't have to lie anymore. I hate lying. It's not who I am. I think of myself as an honest person. This doesn't sound like you would when you're having an affair, but it was killing me inside to be dishonest. And they're old enough. It's not like they were three and six, you know. They were 13 and 16.

Marie Murphy: You know what? I talk to a lot of people who really want to be honest, but also find it incredibly hard to be honest even when they would prefer to be. And what I want to point out here is that you didn't make this any more dramatic than it needed to be or any more difficult than it needed to be. Yes, it can be difficult to tell truths that we think are going to be hard for people to hear. But it doesn't need to be any harder than that. And the fact that you just did it is not a small thing.

And the other thing that I want to mention is I talk to so many people who are terrified of how their children will respond if A, they tell them that they and their co-parent are getting divorced or separating or splitting up or whatever. And B, if they let their children know about their infidelity or if their children find out about their infidelity. And you know, there's no way to know how anyone is going to respond to anything we say to them ahead of time. But what your story indicates is that it's not - the reaction that you get is not necessarily going to be like, oh my God, mom, you're horrible. You shouldn't have done that. It may be one of understanding and generosity. So thank you for sharing that.

Katie: Yeah, they have been super sweet.

Marie Murphy: Amazing.

Katie: They have been great, my younger two. Now, my oldest two who was already married at the time and living in a different state, she actually had a harder time with it because she felt like, who are you anymore? Like you didn't raise me to be like this. She wasn't seeing the daily interactions and the way that things were dysfunctional.

Marie Murphy: Yeah. For sure. For sure. And I mean, as you well know, it can be very easy for people to get really attached to their ideas of how they think things should be and to really not like it if somebody deviates from that course that they see as the ideal.

Katie: Right. Yes.

Marie Murphy: Okay, so what happened from there with your husband? What happened from there with your affair partner?

Katie: So from there, he lived with his sister, my husband at the time, lived with his sister for about a month, just over a month I think, or maybe it was just less than, it was about a month anyway. So that time was really nice because he wasn't there.

Marie Murphy: Yeah.

Katie: And I could do what I wanted.

Marie Murphy: Yeah.

Katie: But he did cut me off financially, which was a really difficult situation. I mean, I was working part-time with my own business. So that was hard. And then we did have like this mediation meeting where me and my sister went to the house that he and his sister were living in and met and talked about, okay, do we actually want to get a divorce? And we decided at that time, yes, we both wanted to and these are some of the logistics around that, which was a good thing to do that. And I mean, it didn't mean that everything went smoothly because it did not. You know, a lot of it was like the financial stuff.

Marie Murphy: Sure. Did you have a professional mediator helping you or was it just your sister and his sister helping too?

Katie: Just the sisters.

Marie Murphy: Okay.

Katie: Right?

Marie Murphy: Yeah.

Katie: And he wanted to do it without attorneys, which I would have been fine with, but then when he like, the finances for that was a big reason that I was like, he's not, well, he gave me an offer that was completely unreasonable. It was he gets the house, he gets full custody of the kids, he pays me $500 a month for 12 months, and that's it.

Marie Murphy: Okay. Yeah.

Katie: That's what he wanted.

Marie Murphy: Yeah, that's pretty good and unreasonable. Yeah.

Katie: So I had to get an attorney.

Marie Murphy: Okay.

Katie: He was too far off.

Marie Murphy: Yeah.

Katie: After 27 years of marriage.

Marie Murphy: Yeah.

Katie: Yeah. So we ended up having to sell the house, which was a lot of back and forth for a while because he was hoping that he could keep it. And you know, there was a lot of blame for me. You're going to make the kids move and to a different house. They just want to stay here and you should just move out and go be with your affair partner. I'm like, I’m not leaving my kids. There's no way I'm doing that. I'm staying here. Plus I was running my business out of our house and I needed the space to do that. So all that.

Marie Murphy: Even though we're not getting into like granular details here, I think it's really important to acknowledge that these things can be really challenging and really unpleasant to deal with. But you're sitting here breathing air and talking to me today, and evidently you made it through.

Katie: Did make it through. Yes.

Marie Murphy: And are you in said house at this point? Did you keep the house?

Katie: No, we sold the house.

Marie Murphy: Okay.

Katie: Yes. We sold the house and he would not sign the papers for me to get my half of the money, and I needed that money in order to put the rent towards my new place. And that was a whole situation that left me with no money and no home. But my parents were very generous and helped me out, and then we eventually, he did sign to give my half of the money, so I actually had money.

Marie Murphy: That's a good thing.

Katie: So there was a lot of difficult financial stuff with the divorce and then of course paying the attorney fees. That being said, I have a friend who also got divorced and hers was 10 times worse than mine. So in the grand scheme of things, it wasn't terrible and we got through it and it was finalized about 11 months after. So he actually was the one who filed for divorce becauseI kind of wanted to put it off and get more information and do some more research and figure out everything, but he just filed it. And I got served with the papers. Which was fine.

Marie Murphy: Yeah, say more. Say more about what you mean by that. I mean, what I'm thinking as I'm listening to you talk is like sometimes we go through experiences that are really quite unpleasant and undelightful in many respects, and it's not great. It just isn't great. There's no way to say it otherwise, but we make it through and we're okay, and we're able to get up and dust ourselves off and keep going. And that's the win. It's not that things went down in an ideal manner. It's just that we were able to get through it and keep going.

Katie: Yes, we were able to get through it. And my affair partner was so amazing and how supportive he was and helping me talk through all these things. So I came to him many times just like crying my eyes out about the situations and the way I was being treated and the difficulty. So my husband moved back in and we lived in the same house but sleeping in different rooms for about six months, seven months.

Marie Murphy: That’s a marathon.

Katie: I think closer to eight actually. Yeah. It was eight months.

Marie Murphy: That's a stretch.

Katie: Yeah. So that was an awkward, we didn't really talk to each other. It's just awkward. Yeah, and he wouldn't - he didn't give me any money. And I granted I did have some money that I was making, but it wasn't a ton. And you know, I used to send him, I he would go grocery shopping sometimes and I would send him like what food to get. So I would send him, I still did the same thing, but he only wanted me to send him stuff for the kids. So it's like he's not feeding me anymore basically.

Marie Murphy: Yeah.

Katie: Understandable. Fine, he doesn't want to feed someone who's cheating on him, but it was just like so many awkward things like that. And I was still doing all the same things of doing like, I was the one who did all the cooking and the cleaning and the dishes and the laundry. I didn't do his laundry anymore. And he did have a tradition of cooking Sunday dinner. And so I would just leave during that time. And he wouldn't eat anything that I cooked. Even though it was something that I knew that he liked.

Marie Murphy: Yeah.

Katie: It's just weird, awkward things.You know?

Marie Murphy: Yeah.

Katie: Which is understandable. Yeah, he's hurt. He's super hurt. He doesn't want anything to do with me, but I'm still there.

Marie Murphy: Sure.

Katie: So I get it. It was just very awkward that whole time.

Marie Murphy: Oh, yeah. Yeah, I can imagine. And again, what I want to emphasize is we can do unpleasant things and make it through. And while it's happening, it can still be really unpleasant.

Katie: Yes, I just made the best of it. I'm like, okay, this is how things are. This is temporary. At least now I get to go see my affair partner when I want. I don't have to hide it anymore. So that was good. And like things will work out and I have my affair partner to lean on. And I have, I did have a really good group of friends that I was able to tell everything to, like everything. And they were really sweet.

Marie Murphy: That's great. I just want to emphasize something again. We can make it through unpleasant stuff and even if it sucks, we can get through it. And eight months sharing a living space with your soon to be ex-husband sure as heck sounds unpleasant to me. And we can do these things when we need to. Okay, so now I want to talk about your relationship with your former affair partner who is now your partner. Just partner.

Katie: Yes.

Marie Murphy: Tell us about that.

Katie: Well, he's amazing. I actually had written some things down because I wanted to remember everything. So I don't want to just say things I like about him or things...

Marie Murphy: Share whatever you want. But I mean, what really strikes me as we've been talking is just the delight that has been evident when you speak about him and how radiant you look when you're talking about him and your connection with him. And you know, there's this very prevalent myth that relationships that start as affairs don't last, which is not true. It just simply isn't true, but people love to keep espousing that one. And so it's just, it's always so important to share the stories of affair relationships that not only work out, but work out beautifully. So anything that you want to say about your relationship is welcome.

Katie: Yes, and I did have push back from family of like, this relationship is not going to work because it's based on an affair. So I have received that feedback from people and you know, considered that and thought about that and prayed about that and I just feel like this is the relationship for me. He freely and sincerely compliments me. He's easy to talk to. I can tell him everything and he loves me and accepts me the way I am. So the most beautiful thing about it is just I feel like I can finally be 100% authentic. And I did not have that before. I can just be me and he loves me for me. So I don't have to stay away from any taboo subjects. He's super positive, he's encouraging, he's upbeat. His humor is more of the self-deprecating type, and he has a great way of de-escalating or like taking down any situation that maybe was like, oh, that could have been offensive, but he has a really great way of just like joking about it and making it not awkward anymore. He loves his job. He loves what he gets to do for work. He loves people. We enjoy working out together still. We do that every morning.

Marie Murphy: That's great.

Katie: We go on walks. He bought us some scooters that we love riding around, which is awesome. I love it. We attend sporting events, go out to dinner, we go swimming. And something that I always wished I could have done with my previous husband was like enjoy reading books together or learning together or sharing things that we've learned about. I just didn't get very good feedback when I would try to do that because I you know, I listen to podcasts and read books. I just love learning new things and I always wanted to share it with someone and I really couldn't. I'd have to like wait until maybe I got with my friends and see if that works in the conversation or maybe tell something to my kids, but not like someone you go to home to every day and you can tell everything to. I didn't have that before and now I do. So we started reading a book together that we pause every paragraph and talk about it.

Marie Murphy: Wow.

Katie: Because it's a nonfiction book. Oh, it's what's the name of the book? Inner Excellence. It's a really good book. We've been enjoying that together. So like my ex-husband would never have read a book with me. I love that. And he, my partner is a yes person. He automatically says yes to things. I just love how positive about things whereas my ex was always a no person. His default answer is no to everything and you'd have to talk him into yes. Whereas my boyfriend, we call each other boyfriend and girlfriend right now.

Marie Murphy: Sure.

Katie: So he's just a yes person. Like I'll suggest something and he's like, yes. But then we might change our mind about it when we've considered things.

Marie Murphy: Sure, yeah.

Katie: But he's just like, he's just like, oh, I can say something and he doesn't shoot me down immediately. Amazing. Yay.

Marie Murphy: Right. It sounds like you really share a similar enthusiasm for life.

Katie: Yes. Yes, for sure. I feel like my self-esteem is better now because I can be myself and be accepted. And I have less limiting beliefs, like, oh, I can take this next step in my career or with this job and he's always encouraging me.

Marie Murphy: Amazing.

Katie: And I can do things that I wouldn't think that I could have done before.

Marie Murphy: Yeah. Yeah, that's incredible. It's funny, like another thing that I think people who are like just dogmatic infidelity haters forget is that some committed relationships can be pretty darn toxic. And or at the very least, they can be very constraining to the lives of its participants. And it's really such a good reminder what you're saying right now that having a partner who enlivens us and empowers us helps us be more of who we fully want to be in the world and we're better able to engage in the world and impact others in a way that we consider positive. And that has ripple effects beyond which we will ever know.

Katie: Yeah.

Marie Murphy: Yeah.

Katie: I love that perspective. That's great.

Marie Murphy: Yeah. So good, Katie. Tell us a little bit more about what has worked out okay or better than okay in regards to your infidelity situation? Anything that we haven't mentioned or anything that you want to emphasize?

Katie: Okay or better than okay?

Marie Murphy: I mean obviously your relationship with your boyfriend does pretty good.

Katie: Yes, having a great relationship has worked out amazingly. Yes, and just feeling like I have more freedom in my life to do things and being able to go on trips with him. And hopefully, he doesn't spend all that much time with my kids, but hopefully they see what a healthy relationship looks like. I don't know if they see that or not, but they see the way that he is. And he did take us like four of us on a trip. Which was really fun because then they got to know him a little bit better.

Marie Murphy: That's amazing. How are relations with your ex these days?

Katie: Minimal as far as we don't interact very much at all.

Marie Murphy: Sure. Yeah. Is that okay with you or would you prefer it to be different?

Katie: I would probably prefer that we had a relationship where we could actually talk about things, mostly in regards to the kids or like have an actual reasonable conversation where it's a back and forth and you compromise. But that doesn't really happen. So it's better this way than having it be antagonistic. It's just very minimal. Like he will ignore a lot of the things if he doesn't think it's important if I contact him about something. So that's dumb. But he does respond sometimes about things and it's mostly like, you need to pay for this for the kids. And I'm not paying for it. That kind of a thing. So it's mostly like negative. Any interaction is mostly negative. But also, there's not very much of it at all. And it's fine. I just want my kids to be taken care of and loved. So the main thing I don't like is that when he's like, oh, I'm not paying for that for her or one of our kids, then my daughter feels like he doesn't love her, even though I know he does love our kids. She just feels like he doesn't care when he won't meet her needs. And I have to be the one to do everything.

Marie Murphy: Yeah.

Katie: But for the most part, it's good. We don't talk or interact. I am still working on not feeling anger just because of the way I was treated.

Marie Murphy: Sure.

Katie: Like just thinking about him can kind of bring up anger and I'm still working on that not happening because it doesn't need to happen.

Marie Murphy: Well, that, you know, it's funny that you say that because I think about anger all the time because it's one of those emotions that we tend to think that we shouldn't feel. And I have a different perspective. There is a place for anger and actually I've been meaning to do a podcast episode about this for literally years. So maybe this is the nudge I needed to get around to it sooner rather than later.

But what I want to suggest is that it's not unreasonable for you to dislike your ex-husband's behavior and to therefore feel angry. It's not unreasonable at all. And we can learn how to honor our anger and feel our anger and digest our anger without acting on undigested anger in ways that we might consider undesirable. Anger gets a bad rap because so often we don't know what to do with it and so we end up acting out when we feel anger and doing things like punching people in the face or like yelling at strangers or whatever that isn't all that cool, right? But the anger itself is just another legitimate human emotion that has its place in our lives.

Katie: Okay. Yes. I do think that's true. I don't want my anger to carry over into how I interact with him. I want it to be a completely fair and reasonable person. So I feel like I have to set it aside and tell myself he has a reason for the way that he's acting. It totally makes sense to him why he's doing what he's doing. And how would a like mature, reasonable, human being respond to this? And I have to coach myself through that I guess.

Marie Murphy: Yeah, I mean, fair enough. And I want to suggest that two things can be true at once. You can have empathy for him and how he feels and therefore why he's acting the way he's acting. And you can also allow yourself to be angry.

Katie: Okay.

Marie Murphy: Yeah. But I mean this is like a, we could talk for hours about this. But it's not the easiest needle to thread, but it is doable. You can have your anger and there can be space between the emotion and your actions, as you're describing. And you can also have respect for why he's acting the way he's acting.

Katie: Okay, great.

Marie Murphy: Yeah. But your anger is sacred. Often we are angry because we feel like something is wrong. We think that something is wrong. And it's okay to think that things have gone wrong in this crazy world we live in, in both our interpersonal relationships and in our global dynamics and everything in between. All right, Katie, we could take this in so many different directions from here. I want to just give you one last opportunity to say anything that you might have thought of as we've been chatting that you want to wrap up with, but if there's nothing like that, that's totally fine. It's just an invitation.

Katie: Well, we do plan on getting married. We've talked about it.

Marie Murphy: Aw.

Katie: And he actually ordered an engagement ring.

Marie Murphy: Aw.

Katie: So things are happening.

Marie Murphy: Congratulations.

Katie: So, nothing's official yet but yeah, I'm looking forward to having a great life with him.

Marie Murphy: That's so cool.

Katie: And living together because we don't we don't live together.

Marie Murphy: So much to look forward to.

Katie: That's right. Yes. I'm excited. I feel like only good things are happening from here. You know?

Marie Murphy: Really cool. I'm so happy for you.

Katie: Thank you.

Marie Murphy: All right, Katie, with that, I will say thank you again for joining me on the podcast. I really appreciate your time and presence and your willingness to share your story, and I know that a lot of other people are going to feel the same.

Katie: Thank you, Marie and thank you for the work that you do. I appreciate you.

Marie Murphy: Thank you, Katie. Thanks for saying thanks.

Katie: You're welcome.

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All right, everybody. That is just about all I have for you today. Another big thank you to Katie. I really enjoyed talking with you and I thank you for being a guest on this podcast. If you're ready to start dealing with your infidelity situation in a way that you feel great about and you want my help doing it, let's get started.

There are two ways you can have me as your coach. We can work together one-on-one via Zoom or you can enroll in my online course. You're not the only one. The rest of your life beyond the drama and difficulties of your infidelity situation is waiting for you.

Thank you all so much for listening. Until next time, bye for now.